Posted by xls on June 26, 19101 at 08:53:20:

In Reply to: Re: Consciousness IS the brain? posted by John Tchoe on June 25, 19101 at 14:34:04:

: : If the same thing can work on different mediums then it is a separate thing, not identical with the medium.

: I'd say they're different instances of the same thing. Is a .jpg of a Renoir not a Renoir?

Guess jpg of Renoir is a reflection of Renoir, but what I wanted to say is that if there *can* be an instance of something on a separate medium then it is a separate thing not identical with the medium.

: But consciousness is non-computable (i.e. cannot be fully described or even defined), so it cannot be put on the hard drive and thus there are no such paradoxes.

: Cannot be defined or described? Cannot be put on a hard drive? I beg to differ. It may be very difficult and time-consuming, but I think it can. You are making a definite negative prediction about the capabilities of future technology (e.g., man will never fly), an endeavor which has time and again been shown to be a foolish one to undertake.

I didn't say that, that consciouness is non-computable is an argument of Penrose, also Chalmers said that consciousness is fundamental. This is the framework of modern science what is necessary in order to determine science and is absolutely enough for science because all what is necessary for science is the ability to explain. Without that framework science would not have such ability because it would not be determined then how to treat such phenomenons as consciousness. I think Chalmers explained it better but Penrose made mistake trying to substantiate it with Godel's theorem. At least it is not convincing for me because say we can describe a process by an algorithm with "while"
loops, Godel's theorem says nothing about that. But as I said, this substantiation was also unnecessary. So in accordance with that, this is the framework of modern science (to be exact, of the very last decade of modern science) and we, discussing science here, have to remain within science. To be honest, this would be some fudge otherwise, so I think that it is better to be constructive.

Follow Ups:

• Re: Consciousness IS the brain? John Tchoe 13:37:06 6/26/101 (2)
  • Re: Consciousness IS the brain? xls 15:54:25 6/26/101 (1)
    • advanced bain Consciousness Mesgena Alem 06:31:11 10/25/103 (0)

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