Posted by John Tchoe on July 18, 19101 at 02:09:34:
In Reply to: Sorry about the delay... posted by Noctillucent on July 16, 19101 at 18:50:37:
: You agree that the atoms in your present brain have no special or unique property that makes them different from other atoms of the same type.
<JT>Until science proves otherwise, yes. I believe one atom of a given element is just as good as another and impossible to distinguish.</JT>
: If this is true, it should make no different to your present consciousness if your brain were made of different set of atoms than the ones it presently has. You would still be YOU, not someone else who only acts like you.
<JT>I'll agree with the statement above, but it looks like your premise still holds a consciousness to be separate from the brain, which is something I disagree with.</JT>
: This is, of course, a hypothetical question. Still, it raises an important point. If your brain consisted of a different set of atoms, and YOU did not exist, but someone else instead, we would have no choice but to conclude that the atoms producing your consciousness are in fact unique in some way.
<JT>It depends on how you define "you". If by "you" you mean the particular set of atoms which compose who I am at this given moment, no, I would not exist. If by "you" you mean the memories and personality which compose my being, then yes, that other set of atoms would in fact be me, but I (my set of atoms) would not be him. He would point at me and say he's not me, either.
The very simple point I'm trying to get across is that my consciousness cannot continue to exist without a body. And if an exact same body were somehow created, then that consciousness inside that body would be the exact same as mine in every way except that it is separate and has an independent existence from mine.</JT>
Moreover, given the vast number of atoms in the universe, the chance of just those specific ones coming together in the same brain, AND, forming a highly specific configuration, would be fantastically improbable. Almost beyond calculation.
<JT>Okay.</JT>
: So let’s accept your statement that the atoms in your brain are not unique in any way, and if your brain were made of any other set of atoms, you would still be YOU.
<JT>Again, "me" in that he/I has/have the exact same set of attributes as I currently do. Not in the sense that I (consciousness and body) now somehow lose my identity.</JT>
If true, then a duplicate brain would be the material realization of this very statement. The difference, of course, is that the duplicate brain would a second brain in addition to the one already existing.
<JT>That "duplicate" brain, though, would contain another consciousness which is exactly the same as mine. But it would be a SEPARATE consciousness.</JT>
: Here’s the important point. The atoms in the second brain can’t know if your present brain already exists. How can they? Atoms are mindless bits of matter. So whether your present brain exists or not can make no possible difference to the atoms of the second brain, and thus to the consciousness ociated with those atoms.
<JT>Right. Unless we happened to run into one another and have this weird moment where we see a living reflection of ourselves.</JT>
: The atoms in the duplicate brain can’t say, “Hey! There’s another brain out there and we are only its duplicate. John can’t be here because he already exists in the other brain, so we must produce a consciousness who only ACTS like John.” That would be absurd, especially given that the terms ‘original’ and ‘duplicate’ mean absolutely nothing to the atoms. They simply are what they are, and consciousness ociated with them is what it is. This would be true whether your present brain exists or not.
<JT>With you so far.</JT>
: Yet obviously there cannot exist two YOUs either, as that would allow you to look at yourself from outside yourself, which is logically impossible.
<JT>I'm sorry, but why is it "logically" impossible, if there are two consciounesses which are exactly alike? Here is where the thread of your argument starts to unravel.</JT>
Having ruled out that atoms are individually unique, this would seem to leave us with only two possibilities. One possibility is that some kind of spooky communication would be taking place between the two brains, and thereby cause the second brain to produce someone who only ACTS like you whenever the first brain is present somewhere in the universe.
<JT>Until we actually perform this experiment, I am going to use the umption that this does not occur.</JT>
: Such a communicating signal would be VERY strange. It must pervade the entire universe in order to ensure that a second identical brain doesn’t exist somewhere. The signal must be able to penetrate anything. It would also be oddly selective in that it would only activate in the presence of its own duplicate. But most oddly of all it would be related to consciousness itself, for it is not the physical brains that create the problem, but the consciousness ociated with those brains.
<JT>That's a whole lot of if's and maybe's...I think there are some people out there who actually believe this would be the case. There are some theories of quantum strings, philotes, which I think would back up the above, bizarre, scenario. Check out Orson Scott Card's "Ender" series. He claims that love binds consciousnesses together across time and space.</JT>
: I think you would agree such a force would be pretty hard to take seriously.
<JT>Personally, yes, it would be very hard to take seriously anyone who put forth such theories.</JT>
: The other possibility is that YOU – your I-ness – simply defies a physical explanation. This has serious philosophical implications.
<JT>I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how you came up with this dichotomy. Why does consciousness defy physical explanation because two brains wouldn't "share" a consciousness?
I never claimed that. My claim is a very, very simple one, which you seem to have a very hard time with. Each physical brain = one consciousness. The physical attributes of that brain equates to attributes (memories, skills, personality, etc.) of that consciousness. And no, there is no PHYSICAL apple in your head, only a neuronal representation of an apple. But that representation IS THERE. Physically.
Remember, this whole thread is about your original header: "Consciousness reducible to the brain? Argument against." So far, I've heard NO convincing evidence which points away from consciousness being reduced to the brain.</JT>
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