Posted by Pat Adams on August 30, 19100 at 02:41:47:

In Reply to: Re: free will and determinism posted by Vitaly Martiniuk on November 22, 1999 at 22:22:12:

: The trials of Galileo and others emphasise the clash of values at the heart of the Age of Enlightenment: is God free to disobey the laws of logic?

: Spinoza, resolutely logical as ever, erted that God has the perfect freedom: to behave exactly like God.

: Moreover, God is the only thing that has this freedom. Everything (and everyone) else is fully determined by the nature of God.

: Furthermore, the idea that there is some kind of divine purpose to human existence is equally foolish; the infinite being does not deal in purpose.

: In other words, 'Free Will', whose nature has been hotly debated since the ancient Greeks, is nothing but a sentimental myth. There can be no Free Will.

From Cap'n Pat / Response
I think belief systems screw everyone up. When anybody makes a choice to believe a thought or an idea or a religion or a philosophy without the option to refine and alter these beliefs, this is when trouble begins! There is definitely free will ... to a point. I cannot choose to be taller than I am or smarter than I am any more than I can choose to beRussian instead of Native American. However, I can choose which religion or philosophy in which to percieve (not believe, because I am open to new data).
I do not know if anyone has ever said thesethings before, so forgive me if I am borrowing someone else's ideas.
Here are a few morsels to chew upon...
1) If I was created by God... then I am as perfect as God intended. Therefore, when I scew things up, I am doing so within the limits of God's Design and should not therefore be called to atone for "sin".
2) Perhaps instead of "Many are called, few are chosen" ...it should read, "Many are called, few choose to follow"?
3) If we do have freedom of choice, the firs time God interferes with that choice he throws a monkey wrench into everything and the whole ballgame is without meaning. Therefore, I believe God has never and never will interfere with our choices as Humankind and we are wasting incredible amounts of time, energy, and money going to church or synagogue praying to God for interventions that by the "freedom of choice" cause in creaion will never happen. Instead we could martial our resources and actually make this earth a better place to live!
4) Is there a God? I feel the definitive answer is that there is no difference between the "non-existence of God" and "a God who sits on his thumbs all day and refuses to pitch in"! Of course since I only perceive stuff instead of believing in stuff... if one day God taps me on the shoulder and says BOO, I will adapt my perceptions to accomodate this new information. But until then I think we are on our own folks.

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